9/7 Tuesday

Kitesurfing or snowkiting...if the wind's blowin'...where you goin?

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Postby Mr » Thu Sep 09, 2010 10:12 am

dewsy wrote:.. did anyone have a word with this kitesurfer about being "safe" when flying a kite on the beach with beach goers downwind?
-dewsy


It's ok, he is on a BRO board..... :shock:



.
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Postby jensmadwind » Thu Sep 09, 2010 4:50 pm

dewsey,

guess you had to be there

this may look hypocritical to some of Wests posts but................blow it out your ass. he is not flying his kite in shifty wind over 10 families on the beach, which is what the sheriff has to deal with.
10 mph?
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Postby schuss8899 » Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:38 pm

Actually, he was potentially saving an injury from happening to those pilgrim beachcombers, he removed a shrapnel of glass from a spent bottle of spotted cow with his swashbuckling, devil-may-care "grab n' go transition.
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Postby Rorke » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:48 pm

dewsy wrote:
Image

Noobs. :lol:

dewsy wrote: I also do not wish to hijack this thread but since we were talking about good decisions..
-dewsy

Wasn't this already in another thread?

I was there; those fudgies were safe. Even if something happened, there were a handful of kiters hanging out ready to catch.
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Postby Bob » Thu Sep 09, 2010 7:49 pm

dewsy wrote:since we were discussing a "safety" issue such as a board leash.. did anyone have a word with this kitesurfer about being "safe" when flying a kite on the beach with beach goers downwind? I was concerned and just thought i might bring it up.. all I know, is from what I hear about the Sheriff, he'd have lost his mind if he were to have seen something like this.. I also do not wish to hijack this thread but since we were talking about good decisions..

Image

-dewsy


rotflmao....

looks like dewey is calling out west and andrew. it's on baby. i think i'll just grab some popcorn and a dew and watch the fireworks.

maybe everyone should just film everyone on every little thing and point it out on the forums.

calling out west?

big picture buddy...big picture.
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Postby Mixmikeup » Thu Sep 09, 2010 8:38 pm

I love leash. Love it. And it loves me. Don't worry leash, I'll never put you down.
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Postby dewsy » Thu Sep 09, 2010 9:03 pm

:lol:

-dewsy
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Postby Misfit » Fri Sep 10, 2010 8:50 am

Image




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Postby West » Fri Sep 10, 2010 12:10 pm

Glad you got it good around Grand Haven, Tim. Where were you, Port Sheldon? Gotta catch up with you soon and see you flyin' that foil with style.... 8)

For those not in the know, Tim is one of the original FIVE kiting Chicago. He is beyond proficient as a kiter, and has been using his leash system for twice as long as most have been kiting. He is highly safety oriented and is familiar with both the benefits and the downfalls with using a leash. He is not pissing in the wind, or just rolling the dice; he is making a concious, educated decision to kite with a leash.

Tim's use of a leash, for his own comfort and desire, is far different than a beginning kiter using a leash while learning...do not confuse the two, they are light years' apart. I do not believe Tim was advocating the use of a leash, he was simply giving an account of his day kiting, back on Lake Michigan.

As for the pic of me kiting at Pt Betsie with the beachcombers in the background. Jens used a telephoto lens to take the shot and the folks were actually a half-mile away.....just joking, they were a bit further than they appear, but they were too close.

The wind was steady as a fan and stuck on 18, and I had been doing a few tacks and coming to shore to lay on the sand in between tacks. I had talked to the two in the pic several times during this stretch. They were very interested in kiting, and were hanging around picking up rocks and checking the scene.

Jens caught a pic at the end of the sesh where I popped up on shore and landed on my butt. I had re-directed the kite towards the water as I landed, and was not concerned of it's falling since the wind was so steady. Although it is possible that a line might have snapped at that very instant, it is highly unlikely. That being said, I can see how it can be viewed as an unsafe practice.

The last thing I want to do is to promote unsafe kiting behavior, and I appreciate the concern that Dewsy and others have with the pic. Regardless of the "mellow" situation and my kiting skills, I should not have been that close to them while upwind; and I acknowledge that my nonchalance may have led to a potential mishap.

I am "fair game" when it comes to peer criticism, and will strive to always keep others out of harms' way while kiting. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I will not be defiant, too proud, arrogant, or ignorant to recognize that I am simply one in a family of Chicago-area kiters, and that my actions have repurcussions for all.

In my opinion the forum is here to bring us all together, to help educate us and to deepen the bond that exists between us. Learning from one another, and respecting the obligation we have to each other is the foundation that will keep us afloat. SAFETY FIRST!!!!

As for the BRO board, no special privledges there (this ain't Corpus), it just gets me into spots I normally wouldn't get into..... And btw, it was an Oberon.....the cow resides a good fifty miles away, on the Wisconsin side..... always drink local!!! :D
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Postby dewsy » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:28 pm

good call west.. good post..

-dewsy
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Postby JDL » Fri Sep 10, 2010 2:45 pm

Back to the matter at hand:

Tuesday was nothing short of incredible. St Joe, in the afternoon, required my total concentration and all of my limited skills. Thanks Paul and Hans for always keeping an eye on me.

MC, in the evening, was more of the same w/ the addition of the beauty created by the sun setting over the water as kites were in the sky. Watching West, Jimbo, Greg and Slavi attack the waves is very inspirational and provides direction for where I want to go w/ my own riding.

Thanks boys for making Tuesday one of the best....
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Postby gbleck » Fri Sep 10, 2010 4:40 pm

My left rotator cuff is just starting to feel better. :)
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Saving Energy....

Postby tog0713 » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:09 pm

Ahhh the leash controversy. Knew my last post would stir it up. For all those experts on the forum I have kited from the beginning starting back in Kailua Bay when the Naish guys were flying two line kites and only a couple of guys were kiting in Corpus. I can body drag as well as anyone, but it takes time and energy. Plus you can lose a board in big waves. I prefer to use my energy to ride and not swim after a board. Have never felt in over a decade of kiting that a board leash with a reel that I have come remotely close to endangering myself. In that time have had the spring on one leash break. This I think my years of kiting represents a pretty broad body of experience. And so I will continue to use a board leash to save energy in demanding conditions and increase the joy of the kiting experience saving my energy for riding and not swimming...

Regards,
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Re: Saving Energy....

Postby 4w7s » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:56 pm

tog0713 wrote:Ahhh the leash controversy. Knew my last post would stir it up. For all those experts on the forum I have kited from the beginning starting back in Kailua Bay when the Naish guys were flying two line kites and only a couple of guys were kiting in Corpus. I can body drag as well as anyone, but it takes time and energy. Plus you can lose a board in big waves. I prefer to use my energy to ride and not swim after a board. Have never felt in over a decade of kiting that a board leash with a reel that I have come remotely close to endangering myself. In that time have had the spring on one leash break. This I think my years of kiting represents a pretty broad body of experience. And so I will continue to use a board leash to save energy in demanding conditions and increase the joy of the kiting experience saving my energy for riding and not swimming...

Regards,
Tim


Tim, I acknowledge the fact that you have many years of experience and that your are safety miinded, however this is enigmatic and I reckon we will have to agree to disagree on this subject.

I personally cannot advocate the use of a board leash - encouraging people to use them will lead to more accidents. I try to ride as much as anyone else, and I ride in some pretty severe conditions, strapless and strapped...and I never feel I need (nor WANT) a board leash. I don't enjoy expending energy to body drag either, but it's not THAT hard.

What I simply do not understand is all the people who say they have trouble body dragging to retrieve their board...did your instructor not show you the proper technique??? Have you not practiced this to perfect your technique???

I feel like this is a FUNDAMENTAL skill, like learning how to get a plane out of a stall, or knowing how to change the tire on your own car...what's the big deal????? (seriously?)
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Postby dewsy » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:01 pm

roberto, it's not that they can't body drag.. in this situation and on this day, he chose not to worry about doing it.. indeed "what is the big deal".. the real problem here is people going through the board with a finetooth comb calling people out who are obviously capable.. he's not a noob asking whether or not he should use a leash, in that case the "crew" can all chime in, and with good reason, but if someone wants to wear a leash to save some hassle, its my opinion it should be up to them and they shouldn't have to hear about it..

Just like my comment about the kiteboarder (who is apparently west) hovering just over the beach at the waters edge with an old lady and a kid yards downwind.. with west at the helm of that kite they are in no danger but the pic got posted for all (including noobs) to see and imitate and none of those most concerned with safety said a thing.. as you can see, when I posted my concerns, jens told me to "blow it out my ass" and that there weren't enough people to actually make it dangerous, bob (an instructor) said i should "look at the bigger picture" rorke said there were a bunch of kiters "ready to catch".. the only person who took accountability for the pic was west.. we all know that west would never let the kite fall on those people, but noobs don't when they go to the pics page to see what kind of cool stuff you can do while kiteboarding.. guys, i know you're all good friends but if we're all so concerned with bettering safety in the sport and how we project ourselves to noobs why the double standard?

-dewsy
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Postby Dechamp » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:10 pm

you can always tell when the wind subsides for a few days......that pic of west kinda looks like he had spotted a Petosky stone and was gonna beat that lady to it!
what ever cranks your turn!
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Postby adseguy » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:16 pm

Fair warning: I'm joking and making light of an earlier situation. :wink:

West wrote:a half-mile away.....just joking, they were a bit further than they appear, but they were too close.


I'm glad you can admit this

West wrote:The wind was steady as a fan and stuck on 18, and I had been doing a few tacks and coming to shore to lay on the sand in between tacks. I had talked to the two in the pic several times during this stretch. They were very interested in kiting, and were hanging around picking up rocks and checking the scene.


Every sentence here is totally irrelevant to the very dangerous act you were doing here buddy. I would NEVER do something like this EVER :lol:

West wrote:Jens caught a pic at the end of the sesh where I popped up on shore and landed on my butt.


Irrelevant and dangerous to yourself if not others

West wrote:I had re-directed the kite towards the water as I landed, and was not concerned of it's falling since the wind was so steady.


You can predict gusts?. Add my response above


West wrote:Although it is possible that a line might have snapped at that very instant, it is highly unlikely.


I know someone that was only steadily kiting by a kayaker upwind when that happen and it ended poorly. I guess you can also predict when lines may snap. I am impressed in your future reading skills.


West wrote:That being said, I can see how it can be viewed as an unsafe practice.


-No response- I must ignore this sane statement

West wrote:The last thing I want to do is to promote unsafe kiting behavior, and I appreciate the concern that Dewsy and others have with the pic. Regardless of the "mellow" situation and my kiting skills, I should not have been that close to them while upwind; and I acknowledge that my nonchalance may have led to a potential mishap.


That is not an apology or admittance of anything. "I'm sorry" is the only term I will accept.

West wrote:I am "fair game" when it comes to peer criticism, and will strive to always keep others out of harms' way while kiting. Thank you for bringing it to my attention. I will not be defiant, too proud, arrogant, or ignorant to recognize that I am simply one in a family of Chicago-area kiters, and that my actions have repurcussions for all.


Do as I say not as I do.


West wrote:In my opinion the forum is here to bring us all together, to help educate us and to deepen the bond that exists between us. Learning from one another, and respecting the obligation we have to each other is the foundation that will keep us afloat. SAFETY FIRST!!!!


I cannot accept this man as referring himself to us. After this insanely horrible action he committed I cannot recommend him to tell others about safety or include himself in "our" group.



I will leave with a quote so that no repercussion can come back to me:

"We shall extend and display respect to all others which reflects our own appreciation of humanity. We shall carry our pride quietly, neither boasting of ourselves nor speaking badly of others - often a dishonest method of self-praise. Yet we must be unashamed of our principles and honest in our criticisms."

Bruddah IZ



I'm here all week folks. (bows)

I know for sure some are laughing pretty hard right now I hope you are one of them West. Comedy wouldn't be funny if it wasn't partially true. I don't think you did anything super dangerous. Sure it's not the best situation to be in, but everyone does this from time to time and if you keep it as safe as possible it's all gravy in my book and hopefully others.

Honestly West I hope to see you soon as we keep missing each other at beaches so we can talk about this. I have a selfish feeling that you have it out for my in a lot of your posts and I don't feel it's justified, but you can do what you like. I'm tolerant, but I like comedy too :wink:

Uhhh - I guess extending on the leash thing I'm in with Roberto. After seeing a dedicated website to board lease injuries and the posts here, my mind is made up -for now- that board leashes are not somehting you want to have, beginner, nor expert.
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Postby Safe_Cracker » Fri Sep 10, 2010 9:30 pm

I enjoy using my ADVANCED board retrieval skillz. :wink:


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Postby 4w7s » Fri Sep 10, 2010 10:44 pm

dewsy wrote:roberto, it's not that they can't body drag.. in this situation and on this day, he chose not to worry about doing it.. indeed "what is the big deal".. the real problem here is people going through the board with a finetooth comb calling people out who are obviously capable.. he's not a noob asking whether or not he should use a leash, in that case the "crew" can all chime in, and with good reason, but if someone wants to wear a leash to save some hassle, its my opinion it should be up to them and they shouldn't have to hear about it..


as I said before:
4w7s wrote:There is no law that you cannot use a board leash...
and there is no law that says you must have common sense either.
...ad nauseum
I suppose I could just be silent and try to feel comfortable about it when I hear about some Chicago kiter getting injured??? Maybe I am being optimistic tothink that collective opinion against using a leash will help prevent injuries that they cause.

I imagine Tim can justify to himself why he uses a leash under certain conditions. And I suppose there is a difference between behaviour that hurts yourself vs hurting others (maybe?) I sort of understand why Tim wanted to use his leash, and he is welcome to do as he pleases - but I do not like the idea of other people adopting this practice and I discourage it every chance I get. If I see anyone riding with a leash I usually spend a few minutes trying to talk them out of it...with probably a 90% success rate.


dewsy wrote:Just like my comment about the kiteboarder (who is apparently west) hovering just over the beach at the waters edge with an old lady and a kid yards downwind.. with west at the helm of that kite they are in no danger but the pic got posted for all (including noobs) to see and imitate and none of those most concerned with safety said a thing.. as you can see, when I posted my concerns, jens told me to "blow it out my ass" and that there weren't enough people to actually make it dangerous, bob (an instructor) said i should "look at the bigger picture" rorke said there were a bunch of kiters "ready to catch".. the only person who took accountability for the pic was west.. we all know that west would never let the kite fall on those people, but noobs don't when they go to the pics page to see what kind of cool stuff you can do while kiteboarding.. guys, i know you're all good friends but if we're all so concerned with bettering safety in the sport and how we project ourselves to noobs why the double standard?
-dewsy


I apologize that I may be missing your point here, but it seems a little contradictory when in the first paragraph you say "its my opinion it should be up to them and they shouldn't have to hear about it.." (concerning a board leash)??

I think it's very fair for you to bring the subject up. I think West has been rather contrite about the situation in the photo...and I am sure all of us could be photographed in a moment of compromised safety. Except on the most desolate of beaches there are always people moving in and out of the "danger zone". I think the golden rule about this issue is to avoid flying your kite over/upwind of people and to maintain very steady control when it's unavoidable. If the wind was too gusty or too light to maintain reasonable control that would be another discussion.

Double standards?? Yes and no. There are some things that beginners simply should NOT be doing even if some of the experts are doing it. I'd again compare this to operating an aircraft - some skills are fundamental and others require 1000's of hours of flight time to perform them safely.

I believe that MOST people understand what the point is here. It often happens that a safety issue quickly becomes a "flame fest" - but what is most important is that every kiter, beginner or expert, follows a regular practice of safe kiting principles - not only for their own safety but as example to others. As we all know, West is very experienced and is very unlikely to cause an accident, but even by his own admission there may have been a moment of "non-challence" on his part.

So, perhaps the essence of this is that we should all be "on our toes" as much as possible. Becoming too comfortable/over-confident and complacent often leads to accidents. As people beccome more experienced with any activity the "Icarus" effect often fills the void created by fading inexperience...avoiding this folly requires some wisdom.
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Postby V » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:22 am

RE: board leash

There are only two times you might need a board leash, ever:

1) When the wind is too strong for your kite and if you lose your board, you cannot bodydrag to it because the wind pulls harder on your kite than the current drifting your board downwind. The newer bow kites have nearly eliminated this problem with the depower range and larger "throw" of the bar allowing quite a bit more wind to be dumped out.

2) when the wind is too light to bodydrag upwind.

Both of these scenarios are scenarios where its either not fun or you just shouldn't be out there. Additionally in scenario 1, the board becomes a lethal projectile. I rode with a leash and that thing came so close to nailing me in my face I had to learn to get along without it. It only takes once to get 29 stitches across your cheek.

If you use a leash please get a "dog leash" which is retractable and significantly reduces the risk. All us non-leashers will still regard your leash-wearin' ass as a newbie even if you've been kiting 10 years, but hey, that's how it is. 8) 8) 8)
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