9/7 Tuesday

Kitesurfing or snowkiting...if the wind's blowin'...where you goin?

Moderators: Misfit, adseguy, Pier, Bob, kris, IVO, skysurfr, West

Board Leash Thoughts.....

Postby tog0713 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 7:59 am

Appreciated West's kind words. Sorry to miss you this trip North. Maybe we can hook up with you and Jerry in Corpus next Spring. I'd love to try out one of your new Bro 144's. Agree V's analysis of appropriate situations for using a leash and always a reel style dog leash. I agree with V that kiting with surfboard leashes can lead to decapitation. Roberto, my old friend, I very much respect your views, but as you said, "We'll have to agree to disagree." And.....No, I don't work for a board leash company.

Regards,
Tim
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Postby dewsy » Sat Sep 11, 2010 8:05 am

ade - hilarious cause he's the only one who was like "yeah it wasn't the best move"

roberto - you're right, no sense beating a dead horse.. good points on your second set of comments too.. I know I've done stuff that wouldn't be good for noobs to see and then immitate (16m c-kite in a field) :shock: not to say i won't do them again but i'll think about it now before i post pics..

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Postby Bob » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:12 am

Dew...We all know it wasn't the best situation in the pic. I was just laughing to myself at the irony of it all about your post. Kind of had an image in my head of either Paris Hilton or Lindsey Lohan giving a drug and alcohol seminar to the Amish.

srotflmfao.....

I'll explain further so there's no more misinterpreted info this time. 99.9% of the time the Amish don't drink or smoke, but maybe just once they slip up and roll a joint or have a shot and it's caught on film.

big picture

BTW...Good debate on Leashes. I refuse to sell them and will not teach with them.
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Postby skysurfr » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:36 am

3) When you're kiteboarding in waves. At Cabo Verde, almost everyone on the waves with a surf board had a leash.

If the wave took your board, it would be lost and you would never get it back. Without the board, you'd have to ditch the kite and swim in an d climb over sharp rocks.

The wind was offshore, and the waves were onshore. (Yes there was a rescue boat)

Even the craziest of the Italians wouldn't go without a board leash!

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Postby JDL » Sat Sep 11, 2010 10:15 am

Tuesday still rocked....
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Postby 4w7s » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:14 am

skysurfr wrote:3) When you're kiteboarding in waves. At Cabo Verde, almost everyone on the waves with a surf board had a leash.

If the wave took your board, it would be lost and you would never get it back. Without the board, you'd have to ditch the kite and swim in an d climb over sharp rocks.

The wind was offshore, and the waves were onshore. (Yes there was a rescue boat)

Even the craziest of the Italians wouldn't go without a board leash!

Mike


I think that this is a good example of one situation where a leash might be convenient. I think "experience level" is a key factor when using a leash...i.e. knowing how to control your kite when the board comes off your feet so that you are not super-loading the lines. A lot of new riders may not have the finesse to do this, and often quite the opposite, they power up the kite at the worst possible moment. Not to say that an expert can't do the same thing at the wrong moment.

I realize it's not sexy looking to wear high top black booties in a nice warm spot like Cabo, but I certainly would wear them if there was any chance I had to walk out over sharp, barnacle encrusted rocks. Leashes do break BTW....and kites also go down as well.

The other thing I wanted to mention - IF you are going to use a leash PLEASE carry a knife to cut the leash. Long ago when using a reel leash I personally experienced the "sea anchor" phenomenon (which can drown you) and had to cut my leash, and I have also seen board leashes wrap around lines. Neither of which is a sexy look either.

I think Tim G understands these problems and is able to deal with them. But I would still try to talk him out of the leash :wink:, especially with the benign sandy shores we have around here and many other places. It's a whole different ball game when you get knocked out by the board - and I saw that situation happen too...very scary.

So, although this subject may have been exhausted in the past, it's good that it gets rehashed and debated again, especially for the new kids on the block. Best to be aware of these concerns before you decide to use one yourself.

PS - sorry about the major hi-jacking of the original thread, but this is an important topic - perhaps in the future moving it to a new thread would keep the natives from getting restless. 9/7/10 was a big day here in MKG, very on-shore winds, 35+ kts, 6'-8' clean waves inside the pierheads (bigger and blown out on the outside), 5m kite was perfect for me, a few other guys on 7's
Last edited by 4w7s on Sat Sep 11, 2010 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby snowball » Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:36 am

I second tuesday still rocked :)

We got it awesome up north......lit on my 9 meter with on the outside 30+ gusts coming in and waves yes waves on winnebago. Then at the end of the session the sun cracked through the clouds and we got a perfect 25 mph sunset session and then i sliced my foot open everywhere on something but still rode with a bloody board because it was so good haha. Kevin was ripping it up at the end on the windsurfer and so was Zach.

And BTW west is a safe rider and he definatly saved my ass a couple times when i was younger and just learning and he took responsibility. I definatly look up to him.

This forum really needs to cut down on the drama and be about the riding. In like 05 or 06 this was actually a "where are you riding today" "Im learning does anyone have advice for how to...." "can anyone give me a ride to waukegan" forum.
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Postby West » Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:12 pm

Allrightey mates, let me tell you a story about Thunderin' Tuesday and the wind that just wouldn't stop. It all started the evening before as we sat on the hillside at Port Sheldon and waited for the wind that never came. There was something in the air, that was as vague as it was evident.

The three of us stared down on a tranquil Lake Michigan, that was forecast to have about a 6 foot swell running down it's shoreline. Instead, we were looking at a lone whitecap or two, and a lake in a slumber. The wind proceeded to die altogether, so we sat back, opened up a Shorts and took in the delightfully calm afternoon.

As evening approached the clouds began to darken and dominate the sky...snuffing out the sun. With no rain evident, we decided to simply watch the Big Wheel turn. The lake was free of any wandering sheep, and the currents were beginning to take hold and swirl its' tranquil surface.

Suddenly a single shaft of sunlight shone a brilliant sunspot on the Big Lake about 3 miles from shore. Jimbo, Greg, and myself watched as this spot grew in size and intensity, slowly turning into a whirlwind of light that lasted for several minutes. We all acknowledged that it was a sight like none of us had ever witnessed. We didn't know what it meant, but we knew it meant something.....something that was as vague as it was evident.

The next day as I sat on the shoreline between St. Joe and South Haven, I knew exactly what it had meant. After riding the swells generated by a southwest wind that had kicked in round about midnight the night before, I knew exactly what it had meant. The wind had been blowing for 10 hours at 30 to 40 knots, the swell was running at 8 to 10 feet and building, and the sun was shining with a brilliance I have never experienced....blue skies so BLUE, that there will never be a more BLUE day....with a sun so yellow, it had to be the true color of sunshine. Sitting on the sand with the surf lapping at my board, sand blasting down the shoreline as side-shore as side-shore ever was.....I knew exactly what it had meant.

Big T, Blueberry Bob, and Todd G. joined Greg and I in St. Joe earlier Tuesday morning and we rigged up some small kites and headed out for South Haven at about 11. It was already classic at Tiscornia, and the day was just beginning. As we began our downwinder, you knew it was going to be something special, nothing vague at all about that feeling.

Jimbo was coming in from Kalamazoo and was going to be about 45 minutes behind and would have to play "catch up". It was so super smooth at Tisc, it was hard to even leave, but what lay ahead was pure MADNESS!! We began winding our way down the first several miles of the 23 mile trip, with smiles as big as Texas, beaming from our faces.

Within the first several miles of catching wave after wave with turn after turn, I realized it was going to be a day of 1001 bottom turns. My 7m was nicely powered and the wind was just going to pick up the entire way....I knew I would be drained at the end of this downwinder. There was no pacing though, every single wave that called my name bore a slash from my 130!!! Wave after wave, building to 10 to 12 feet by the time we hit mile 12.....and by then my 7m was LITTTTTTTTTTTT.

Shortly before hitting mile 12, I saw that yellow and red 9m REV headed like a "bat out of hell" down the coast. The cavalry was coming, and it was ALL Jimbo. He proceeded to smash the wavefaces, and do railgrabs from 30 ft up all the way down. As I sat on the shore and basked in the sunlight of Thunderin' Tuesday, and watched all my buddies just shredding up the BIG LAKE....I knew exactly what it had meant!

We gathered at mile 12, did some "fist bumps" and carried on like wayward mariners sometime "carry on". Now it was pumping, the waves were jumbled at times and smooth as silk at others. We would hang in places that offered a clean, smooth, big, peeling wave and cruise past sections that were not as SWEET. As we went down the coast, trailing each other, sometimes sharing sets, sometimes waves; we must have been quite the sight, with our different colored kites weaving through the BLUE.

By the time we got to the power plant, 6 miles or so from South Haven, there were no more small sets....it was just set after set of double head-high waves....at times you were able to get up to 8 turns on a wave, kick out, turn on the next set and carve up another 6. All the way down to South Haven. Sand dunes, rock cliffs, white beaches, forested hillsides.....all framed by BLUE, not a cloud in the sky all DAY....I knew exactly what it had meant.

I milked it for all I could at the power plant. Some of the nicest waves I have ever seen on Lake Michigan. By this time, it was Greg and I bringing up the rear; trying to use every bit of energy we had to just make it last a little longer. (A MAGIC moment is fleeting and one you just don't want to LET GO.......although as I write I realize it hasn't gone anywhere, it's still here, and I'm still there in the magical glow of the afternoon BLUE of Thunderin' Tuesday.)

As we approached the lighthouse in the distance, the beaches that had lined the coast for much of the way, gave way to a rocky shore lined with trees. The waves that were breaking on the outside were reforming into unbelievably clean 6 to 8 foot sets that were relentlessly pounding the shoreline. With Caution thrown to the wind, I went in with my head on a swivel and my board carving on a dime. The smoothest waves of the day awaited my arrival....I did not disappoint....board and wave became one as I simply melted into the moment....the magic moment. All the way to the jetty I sped, spray in my eyes, wind in my hair....heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside.....racing down the rocky shore, on through the BLUE day with the sun so yellow, it must be the color of pure SUNSHINE.

As I rounded the jetty, the rest of the crew sat next to the jetty on the sand with their kites surrounding them, with their "body language" saying ALL DONE!! I limped on in, to the sight of sand whipping along the beach in a 40 knot perfectly side-shore wind. SIDE-SHORE the entire 23 mile, 3 and a half hour stretch....always side-shore though the coast line turns along the way and the wind was forcast to go westerly. Sitting on the shore of South Haven remembering the sun's display from the day before in Port Sheldon....I knew exactly what it had meant. Enjoying a crisp, cold Oberon with Greg and the South Haven crew after an incredible downwinder, I knew exactly what it had meant.

As we ate a sandwich in the parking lot at North Beach and regained a little energy, we watched as the wind began turning due West. About to call it a day and head back to Chicago, I regained my senses, had Greg check the conditions at MC, and realized that by the time we got to MC, it would be absolutely CLASSIC. It was only 5:30, by the time we got to MC and rigged it would be 7:00....get an hour back and it's 6....we could ride till sunset and then some, I knew the wind was not going to back off, the waves were going to build, and it would be glassy....Jimbo followed and Greg and I hit the road, eating anything we could find in the lil' red Toyota truck. We had more riding to do, a calling to answer, more waves to rip.....onto MC we went, on through the BLUE day, with a wind that knew no end, and a day as yellow as pure SUNSHINE!!

That one was for you Henry....keep on keepin' on up there, and keep it real!! Study a bit, too. :wink:

PART II to follow.....MC till sunset on Thunderin' Tuesday, and till the reflections of the jetty's lights that shone off the wave face next to the jetty shone brightly....
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9/7......

Postby tog0713 » Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:01 pm

Hey West,

Loved your recap of an incredible day on 9/7 and have enjoyed the leash debate. This must stand as a record for the forum of nearly 2,000 views of 50+ posts.....a credit to V for setting up the forum and the Lake Michigan gang for the intelligent comments. The FKA, (Florida Kite Blog) pales in comparison to this forum. Although perhaps in Tampa Bay with a long season, nearby launches for every wind direction and miles of open unrestricted beaches the mellow locals have less to write about....

Regards,
Tim
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Postby slavman » Sun Sep 12, 2010 12:00 am

I wanted to stay quiet on the topic of the leashes, but I will add my 10 cents.
In 99% of cases on either of the Big Lakes you will not need the leash. Never on the twin tip.
The beaches are sandy and waves generated by the wind, so mostly onshore conditions with the waves breaking close to the shore enough so board retrieval is not going to be a major challenge. In the worst conditions it will wash out on the beach. I don't see a reason to use the leash in non wavy conditions, as it was said - with the new generations kites it is amazing how you can body drag upwind or actually swim up wind with the kite being completely depowered over your head.
The ocean is a completely different thing. Ground swell, more powerful waves, side shore or side off shore conditions, super strong rip current. Most often surfboard under your feet and often strapless. When you wipe out you lose contact with the board. Getting out of the impact zone in the ocean conditions is definitely trickier, whereas even the gnarliest waves on the lake are gentle and puffy comparing to the ocean ones. Take for example Baja with super rocky coast - you lose your surfboard - repair guarantied since it will end up on the rocks (if you're lucky the seaweed will claim it). I just came back from Indo, kiting with Ben Wilson and Ian Aldridge (both are champions under every aspect). The coast rather sandy with occasional rocks. Both these guys are using the leashes like every other surfer (and great surfers they are). When kitesurfing the waves on the surfboard you use more of gliding technique like in traditional surfing. When using a twin tip (especially on flat water) you edge more and you go faster. That's why during a wipeout on the surfboard the impact is smaller than on the fast twin tip and the slingshot effect is weaker. Adding more experience of the ocean wave kiters and some knowledge of surf itself it is not difficult to understand that many kiters in such circumstances will have a leash on their surfboards and rarely sustain any injury from the board itself.
One situation I wanted to share: got pumelled by the overhead surf in Indo, kite ending up in the surf and the board (on the leash) goes through my center lines. I do get rid of the kite so the surf can safely wash it out on shore but what I feel is a strong yank on my leg since the surft is dragging my kite, which is dragging my surfboard and the surfboard is dragging me with my leg. Don't fight then and don't panic, since it should ease up in several seconds and even if it doesn't you simply reach and take off the leash from your leg (today's velcro systems do a great job).
Recapping: leash on the Lakes - 99% no, leash on the ocean waves - very often used.
waiting for West's Part II - indeed the epic evening (no leash needed).
see everyone on the water
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The Pro's Use Them

Postby tog0713 » Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:28 am

Slavi,

Appreciated your and Mike's comments on using board leashes in knarly conditions which make board retrieval tough. On Ocean waves providing a tougher challenge than waves on the Big Lake, I would agree with you 99% of the time. However, when the Big Lake goes off like last Tuesday with 6 to 10 foot faces the waves are bouncing off the side of the lake as they come down the lake. The effect is having them break at you from several direction all the way across the lake. This, given considerable experience in riding ocean waves off the North shore of Maui and Oahu as well as up and down the West coast and Florida makes them considerably more challenging than big clean ocean swells. Last Tuesday I was riding in an area without a jetty to even up the waves which were breaking not only in the near shore impact zone, but all the way across the lake. I these conditions losing a board a half mile off shore would probably have meant chasing it all the way to the beach. As I didn't consider this a pleasant prospect, I used a reel board leash that worked flawlessly. I never spent more than a 30 seconds retrieving the board when without it I would have needed to chase it all the way to the shore.

In closing, your and Mike's examples of top riders using board leashes proves that at least in some conditions the real good guys use them. In fact, I don't always use one myself. However, I do think my reasonably large body of experience as well as that of some top riders worldwide. This for me says that board leashes do hold a practical place in the sport of kitesurfing and those who continue to hold a closed mind against them really aren't seeing the total picture.....

Regards,
Tim
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Postby West » Sun Sep 12, 2010 8:55 am

PART II: Thunderin' Tuesday at MC

It's a damn nice feeling heading down the road with your kite buddies by your side knowing that you are "golden"....and that an amazing session is destined for you. Some question the "shaking of the Rocks", but when I picked up the three that had been rattling around in my hands since sitting on the bluff at Port Sheldon, I knew I had some good ones. They came from the shores of Lake Superior, from 12 mile beach....and the sound of them stirred the leaves on the trees.

As we passed New Buffalo, Greg checked the readings again....MONEY, the wind had just turned from Southwest to West at MC!! It was still blowing over 30, and the waves would start building now that the wind had turned onshore. Add to the mix, the glassy wave conditions that would greet us, and you can understand the anticipation that was building.

We hit the parking lot to a site, oh so familiar, one of sand being blown over the parking lot wall, through the parking lot, like wisps of smoke from a 5-alarm fire on the wings of a howling wind. It was crankin' and the waves were peeling. The direction of the jetty at MC bends the waves along the shoreline and keeps the waves from reverberating against its' rocky sides on a due West wind.....a West/Northwest will quickly get junky....a Southwest wind turning West is BINGO! Hard to get, impossible to forget!

Hoots and holleers resounded as we piled out of the trucks...it was on like Donkey Kong...Greg and I dedicated the sesh to V, and grabbed the small kites. We were about to throw down some turns for our "hobbled" buddy, who was nursing a sore ankle and couldn't join in on the FUN!! As it turned out, we racked up enough turns for V, Jarch and the Sheriff...with plenty to still "notch" for ourselves. 8)

John Lynch and Slavi greeted us as we pumped up the same kites we had rippped the downwinder on earlier. Although the waves were a bit smaller, they were as clean as a whistle, and the wind was smooth and steady at a cool 33. The clincher was that the waves were breaking down the beach on an angle, resulting in some incredibly long, peeling waves.

As I left the beach on my first tack, I called on memories of sessions past, saluted the sailors I've shared them with, and melted into the moment of the present. Sometimes it justs all seems to FLOW...the energy from the wind, into the kite, down the lines, through the bar, into your hands, down your feet, through your board, into the water.....no obstuctions, no hang-ups....pure energy, and you are the conductor!!

Jimbo and Greg were just leaving the beach and heading upwind to the jetty as I tagged a couple of waves and headed down the beach for a bit. Smacking and slashing, hooting and hollering, I felt like a monkey on a banana farm....which one do I grab next....this one, no that one, I'll take 'em both, and can I have another please.

I caught up to my BROS just carving it up, wave after wave, as the sun was starting to make its descent into the BLUE that had claimed the day. The wind that wouldn't stop just kept on humming along, to a tune I knew so well!! I hummed along with it, and returned to my mystical satori. Heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside...Greg screams past coming off the bottom....heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside....Jimbo flies by grabbing rail as he comes softly down smiling....heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside....John is coming down a face, intense as hell, with the curl of the wave off his shoulder....heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside....Slavi passes by, going backside with an expression on his face as if he has found the Holy Grail....heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside....the sun is sinking low in the sky, finally giving up the YELLOWNESS it has worn all day, and donning an orangey cloak....heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside....all turns and no jumps can make a man dizzy....heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside...backroll to exit....where am I?

The wind continues to blow "sand-devils" down the beach, as a reddish halo begins to form around the setting sun. And the waves keep coming, and the spray keeps going....off the back of the twin-tip, up into the sky, kissing the BLUE goodbye....Adios GRAND day, welcome idyllic evening!! Heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside....and the riding continues into the ever-growing crimson glow.

The lights that line the walkway of the jetty begin to flicker and shine their reflection off the smooth waves that are breaking next to the jetty's rocky side. The few kites that remain are silouetted against the red sky, and the darkness of night begins to creep in from the East, accompanied by a faint star or two. Greg rockets off the bottom to hit another lip, and kicks out to find another to engage, dissappearing into the sublime. Heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside, heelside, toeside...yeah, I knew what it had meant....it was plainly EVIDENT!!

As Slavi, Greg, John, Jimbo and I sat in the parking lot and toasted the sesh with the world's finest...the fabled Two Hearted...I knew what it had meant, and I gave thanks for being able to share it with my compadres...what a fabulous day of kiting on Thunderin' Tuesday ....NO KA OI!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
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Postby 4w7s » Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:10 pm

West, nice telling of a story of an epic day on the water.
You should teach a creative writing course.
Add some photos!!
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Postby jensmadwind » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:40 am

With all due respect,

What do you do when you crash in front of a wave, go over the falls and now have a leash and your lines wrapped around you?

I got thrashed by a wave I thought I was going to thrash and then its buddy following behind it crushed me too. I went over the falls twice and it was nothing short of miraculous that my flying lines did not wrap me up.

I can not imagine how complicated and dangerous things would have been had I had my board leashed to me.

Your post made it sound like you were riding a 13m kite in up to 40 knots and thanking your board leash for a good time. I am glad you had a great day but no need to add your board leash praise to the post, which it sounds like you knew would attract some attention. I think that is more misleading to noobs than the picture I posted of West.


For all those other then Tim wearing a board leash is like wearing a sign on your back saying. "I don't know what I am doing and shouldn't be out in this" just my opinion based on almost a decade of experience.

allot got added while typing this, just to clarify we are not pro's in the gnarliest of conditions, we are mere mortals on the sandy shore of lake michigan. Where a board snapping back and taking your teeth out is more likely than loosing your board to the offshore wind and rocks.


Dewsy,

I kinda figured you might try to make something out of that pic. You are just trying to call somebody out cause you get called out all the time. Big difference is you are just talking sht (hence my response). If you cared so much about the morality of what was happening in that picture you would have said it off the bat, not put it in your back pocket and wait for an opportunity to use it.
10 mph?
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Postby Mixmikeup » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:29 am

jensmadwind wrote:
Your post made it sound like you were riding a 13m kite in up to 40 knots and thanking your board leash for a good time. I am glad you had a great day but no need to add your board leash praise to the post, which it sounds like you knew would attract some attention. I think that is more misleading to noobs than the picture I posted of West.

For all those other then Tim wearing a board leash is like wearing a sign on your back saying. "I don't know what I am doing and shouldn't be out in this" just my opinion based on almost a decade of experience.



I'm pretty sure if you saw a noob on the water with a 13m in 40 knots of wind and 10ft waves, your question wouldn't be "Why are you using a leash?", and instead would probably be, "Why are you out with a 13m in 40 knots of wind riding 10ft waves?"

Am I the only person who thinks this is being blown way out of proportion? :|
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Postby jojy » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:37 am

Mixmikeup,
As an answer to your last question : NO !

I also think that a noob in the above condition, not only won't be able to use a leash, he just won't be/stay above the water.

Next subject......pppppplllleeeaaasssseeeeeee :lol: :wink:
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Postby West » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:44 am

Part III of Thunderin' Tuesday to follow soon......the full moon sesh at Miller beach on the way home from MC..... :lol:

Good thing the BRO boards glow in the dark!! 8)
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Postby Mixmikeup » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:06 pm

wait a sec, I may just be gullible, but do Bro boards really glow in the dark? :D
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Postby gbleck » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:59 pm

The sky was so blue my board was craping rainbows.
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Postby Safe_Cracker » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:37 pm

Mixmikeup wrote:wait a sec, I may just be gullible, but do Bro boards really glow in the dark? :D


That would be nice, then I wouldnt have to use a lume stick when I ride at night.. :)
I could be wrong, but not usually

:)-~
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