Sunday Mar 28 Montross = 9m

Kitesurfing or snowkiting...if the wind's blowin'...where you goin?

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Postby urjc22 » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:02 pm

"The current state of the organizations have no influence on the rules in effect at Montrose."

I disagree. If the organizations are more or less defunct, then in inhibits the ability for people to become certified and obtain a streamer at Montrose. Until this issue is addressed, you are going to have people flying without a streamer.
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Postby Rorke » Mon Mar 29, 2010 12:15 pm

Should this be continued on the existing thread in the Open Forum?

http://www.chicagokitesurfing.com/kiteboarding_messageboard/viewtopic.php?t=7247

Might help when people use the "search".
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Postby adseguy » Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:33 pm

Bob wrote:adrien,

dude, we're friends, but man up on this. if it's the rule that streamers are needed, get a streamer or don't ride.

bob


Yo Bob? I don't disagree about the streamers. I think it's a good idea! lol. I hate internet talk cause you can't tell the inflection in someone's written words. I was honestly just asking a question.

Only concern with the streamers is that it doesn't always prove you're a good enough rider. I've seen 2 people with streamers crash kites when they shouldn't have been crashing. I did my duty and told them to get better before riding again at Montrose.
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Postby dewsy » Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:54 pm

well, shoot.. I think I'll just bow out and make the drive and avoid taking the risk of screwing it up for everyone (seriously, i don't want to take the risk of having that location close cause i accidentally drop a kite out there).. lucky for me i got enough footage to make one more vid when i was out without a streamer on sunday..

it is a great spot though, stay safe guys, enjoy montrose..

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Postby 4w7s » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:13 pm

urjc22 wrote:While I do understand that there is a rule regarding a streamer to ride, I think that this needs to be addressed in light of the fact that PASA and IKO are more or less defunct organizations.


First of all this is not true. Just because Menta or any others do not support PASA or IKO, they are still the top 2 organizations in this country, whether you like what they are doing or not. I feel it is misleading to say they are defunct. Please stop spreading falsehoods regarding this.

urjc22 wrote:I do understand that there may be some instructors in the area with PASA/ILO certs? Would any of these instructors be willing to spend a few hours certifying people at Montrose or Waukeegan prior to the season opening? Maybe offer what I have seen some do and charge each candidate $15 to essentially watch them kite and give them a cert. so that they can apply to PASA and get the card. The instructors could make some extra $ for essentially doing nothing other than either approving or denying people and hopefully this could help to alleviate the problem of people riding without streamers.


Maybe some instructors are willing to spend 2-3 hrs of their time for nothing...but if in fact they spend 15 minutes to certify you then I would argue there is something rotten in Denmark. I have stopped certifying people mostly because they expect something for nothing, and that is not an honest way for an instructor to handle this. I charged a fee and spent considerable time and effort to justify it. Just doing the paperwork and correspondence with PASA takes much longer than 15 minutes. No matter how good you are a full review of your skills and knowledge is usually the proper call.

It's amazing, most people will spend more on a night on the town for dinner and drinks than they are willing to get certified so they can ride at a place like Montrose. I'll go out on a limb and say your priorities are pretty messed up if you fall into that category. - especially to those who are risking the loss of use of Montrose for everyone.
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Postby jochi » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:30 pm

Everyone wants a cut huh?!

Look its the off season. Everyone out there was riding great and staying up wind. Let's have a proper discussion of the streamer thing. During the lifeguard season have your streamer. But please. Don't be starting something just because you forgot your kite or harness or lines or booties or hood or gloves or whatever and did not ride when there were other people out.

I am shocked how nice everything was at Montrose. Everyone was helpful and landing and launching kites. We had 8 kites up. There were no cops...hell even the undercover cop is a windsurfer who supports us. And there were no life guards or swimmers. So why do you all start posting something that does not need to be posted. If you feel real strongly...post in the on - season if you see non-compliance. But until then....give it a REST!!!! I am siding with Adrien here.

Sorry....i cannot stop myself sometimes. But everyone will be happy since I am moving back to Canada in the summer.

Still yesterday was GREAT at montrose. Brian is right....it will be a great season, and Dewsy is a very good rider! I am impressed after all the antics! It seems he can go upwind without a streamer. (but he should have no probs getting one for the on-season)....Kind of the IDEA right?!!?!

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Postby urjc22 » Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:35 pm

I understand fully what you are saying, but for a lot of people the issue of money is a big one. Again, I am not taking sides in this whole matter. I simply just suggested that it would be nice if local instructors in the area offered a few days where they coould certify riders for a small fee. In talking with some people in other areas of the country that have similar access issues, this seems to be fairly common practice. I think that the attitude that many have is "Why should I pay someone that I may or may not kite better than, the full cost of a lesson to get a certification." That is a valid point. The money issue is what drove PASA and IKO's struggles and caused many former certified instructors to part ways with them.

In addition, goand look at the PASA website. The insructor count is really low. When you take a look at level 2 instructors, it is even lower. I am not arguing what is right or wrong about people riding at Montrose without a cert, just pointing out the issue that it is ridiculously difficult for people to get a certification due to the low numbers of certified instructors.

Again, my post was by no means meant to attack anyone on this board, especially Roberto as I know you post on the FKSA forum and are a very respectable guy. With that said, if you can't certify someone within 15 minutes of watching them kite, there is an issue. I think most would agree that you can generally watch 10-12 tacks and be able to tell if a person can a) go upwind b) has kite control c) safely launch and land the kite.

In regards to the paperwork, the way I understand it from speaking with PASA is that generally one email to PASA from a certified instructor is all it takes to become certified. The rest is up to the rider to fill out forms, pay etc... Again, I may be wrong, but this is what was communicated to me when i tried to obtain my certification from them.

Again, my orginal post was intended to just layout what the current issues are. Until access to becoming certified becomes a reality, people will continue to ride at Montrose without a streamer.
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Postby dewsy » Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:59 pm

urjc22 - I like your neutrality, and i think you're bringing up some very valid points.. I also agree that an instructor, should be able to tell who a good rider is after seeing them ride.. I mean they ARE an INSTRUCTOR right? If an instructor isn't sure, then yeah go ahead and watch them for longer..

I'm sure there are plenty of riders out there good enough to be certd., where an instructor could watch for a very short time and know for sure they're not going to put themselves or other people in danger..

jochi - thanks!

I hate to say it but I feel like green has a bit more to do with it than it should.. by the way, i did see a guy or two walk up to the beach right as i was leaving with what looked like just a kite and very little gear, i didn't stick around long enough to find out who they were or what the story was though.. (no big deal)

ZION on Wednesday!

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Postby slavman » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:38 pm

the rule is the rule. i have a streamer but didn't put it since I thought the rule is effective since the memorial day. my mistake.
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Postby 4w7s » Mon Mar 29, 2010 8:48 pm

Hey man, no skin of my back...I could care less about the hassle of certifying people purely due to the disrespect shown for the whole process. It's not about the money, trust me. But at the same time I'm not into wasting my time any more than the rest of you.

To suggest that someone is unqualified if they can't certify a rider in 15 minutes is pretty naive at best. It's also a good way to lose your credentials and mar your reputation.

And, if it's such a simple deal, why don't all the complainers here go get certified by IKO, PASA, BKSA, or whatever so they can pull out the rubber stamps and certify others.

Any moron can do it actually. And you'll be a hero for saving everybody a few dollars.
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Postby Safe_Cracker » Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:29 pm

I would definitely pay the premium to get certified, especially if it means I can kite at Crandon lol OOOHHUM one day!!!! Funny people can come up with money for gear but no money for a certification? What are we going to do when they require a registration and insurance it is coming soon? BTW certification should require safety demonstration by the kiter being certified including a simple pack down if you are unable to relaunch. Pass me another brew would ya?

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Postby 4w7s » Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:23 pm

Safe_Cracker wrote:I would definitely pay the premium to get certified, especially if it means I can kite at Crandon lol OOOHHUM one day!!!! Funny people can come up with money for gear but no money for a certification? What are we going to do when they require a registration and insurance it is coming soon? BTW certification should require safety demonstration by the kiter being certified including a simple pack down if you are unable to relaunch. Pass me another brew would ya?

Polo.. :wink:


Finally someone making some sense.
Make that a pint of Guinness
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Postby urjc22 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:33 am

Again, it is all about the money. I was never trying to take a side on this. Just trying to show what the facts and issues are.

I was not in any way trying to attack anyone. If you read my original email, I simply asked if any of the local instructors that are certified would be interested in making some cash and doing certs for a reasonable price. Which again is consistent with other areas in the country. If you are not interested, no need to respond.
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Postby Bob » Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:46 am

Be glad we don't have to deal with what Florida riders have to deal with day in day out with potential bans or as this thread alludes to...purposeful bans.

http://fksa.org/showthread.php?t=9472

Looks like this has been a good discussion and better to have it now than later this spring when the beaches are full. ride hard.

Jason...good job. It hasn't gone unnoticed and you probably know exactly what I'm getting at. Keep up the good vibe.
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Postby 4w7s » Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:35 am

urjc22 wrote:Again, it is all about the money. I was never trying to take a side on this. Just trying to show what the facts and issues are.

I was not in any way trying to attack anyone. If you read my original email, I simply asked if any of the local instructors that are certified would be interested in making some cash and doing certs for a reasonable price. Which again is consistent with other areas in the country. If you are not interested, no need to respond.


First of all, if you post something here people are free to respond if they agree, disagree, want to remain neutral, want to add information etc. Seems a bit thick to expect people not to respond?

Second, gratuitous services usually are bollox, and you usually get diminished service and quality. Lawyers do pro bono work for the needy, doctors do the same, and many others offer services when there is a pressing financial/social need. Kitesurfing and getting certified to ride at Montrose doesn't seem to be in the same category.

At one point a few years ago I offered to do group certifications for a minimal fee. Guess what? Hardly any response. Why? Probably people feel entitled to ride wherever they want/whenever they want and don't want to spend the time being scrutinized, and possibly fail the review. And the thought of abiding by some simple rules is too much to handle for some.

Aside from that I've always held that Montrose is not a beginner spot and that the current standards are actually too lax - in the sense that PASA level 2 rider definition does not IMO qualify someone for conditions that often exist at Montrose.

The problem being certified elsewhere is that they have no idea what you are going to encounter at Montrose, and they are usually trying to be your "bro" and will hand you a meaningless certification. I've been in this sport for 10 years, have taught for 7 years, and I've seen a lot of BS, believe me.
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Postby Safe_Cracker » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:04 am

I love that post Roberto funny I have any kiter that broke the rules from Ft.Lauderdale down to the Hillsboro inlet on video. If that persists I may have to YouTube the video eh? :lol: As for the post above my guess why people don't show for a bulk certification is that they aren't confident in there skills around others, maybe a bit embarrassed to show others? This could be the reason they will contact you one at a time on a more personal level ? Either way when I am ready for both spots north and south I will hit you up for sure... Polo. :wink:
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Postby skysurfr » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:48 am

Sinners and Saints....

We have this heated discussion every year.

The City want's to know that those riding at Montrose are certified to an intermediate level or better. We wrote it that way to get as many on the water as possible and keep the hurdle as low as possible. That means some riders with a streamer will be challenged at Montrose. Spring and Fall are the times for them to get Montrose experience.

If you don't like the Streamer System, please suggest something else. The goal was to make it easy to show up, kite, and go home.

The rules suck. Nobody likes them. However, the alternative is no kiteboarding.

There are lots of places to get certified. We have a giant list of people who have mannaged to do it. Sorry that you have to put out a little effort and a little cash. The real problem is the lack of windy days and reliability.

The cost of a streamer has been $0 so far.

There was a plan floated a couple of years ago that involved a $150 permit fee paid each year to the PArk District per kiteboarder. You'd have to leave your proof of insurance, certification, and copy of your photo id on file with the PArk district. There would be a check-in and check-out board. If there were more kiteboarders on the water than were checked-in, then everyone would come off the water to sort it out. There would also be some type of streamer, rash guard, or other method to id the kiteboarders.

That's when we suggested we self police, handle all the paperwork, avoid the fee, avoid the check-in/out etc....


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Postby dewsy » Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:55 am

Roberto - what would it cost me to get my cert from you? I'd like to ride at montrose, and I'm available weekends to get over to Michigan.. I will probably head over to that side of the lake this weekend cause it looks like it's going to be blowing sw..

bob - thanks..

mike - I'd be for that.. at least that way we're doing more than just using the cpd, we're contributing towards it, and we'd have that in our corner if something went wrong..

-dewsy
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Postby 4w7s » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:13 pm

Safe_Cracker wrote:I love that post Roberto funny I have any kiter that broke the rules from Ft.Lauderdale down to the Hillsboro inlet on video. If that persists I may have to YouTube the video eh? :lol: As for the post above my guess why people don't show for a bulk certification is that they aren't confident in there skills around others, maybe a bit embarrassed to show others? This could be the reason they will contact you one at a time on a more personal level ? Either way when I am ready for both spots north and south I will hit you up for sure... Polo. :wink:


Actually there was a request for group certs a few years ago, but when it came down to actually doing it/scheduling it with a reasonable offer on the table, nobody stepped up, only a few individuals, which I suppose is better than nothing. The criteria for me to certify for Montrose was pretty clear. I also made it clear that the cert session was not a lesson, only observation and documentation - and if you needed a lesson that's a whole different ball game.

Dewsey - thanks for the interest but I do not do certs anymore - I've already wasted enough time on it. There must be others in Chicago who are qualified to do it? In any case I will not be available until mid June.

Polo - the situation on FL East Coast is pretty dire. Imagine having the Atlantic Ocean and beautiful Gulf waters right there and you have to drive 2-3 hrs every time you want to kite...just because a few wankers refuse to follow a few basic rules that 90% of kiters respect, and in addition need to rub their rejection of these rules in everyone's face. Sorry to say but refusing to be properly certified (for whatever reason can be dreamed up) to ride at Montrose is pretty much the same attitude.
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Postby urjc22 » Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:25 pm

Just to once again lay out the problem. There are no PASA certified instructors in the Chicago area. I called PASA and asked. That is the issue people are having with attempting to play by the rules and get certified.

Also, Roberto is right, go read the FKSA forum, they have some real issues. I have a condo in the Keys and have heard about the nightmare happening on the South Florida coast. Let's not compare it to Montrose though. No one is intentionally trying to get Montrose banned. I have also never seen anyone do a kiteloop at Montrose over the shore.

For everyone that is not aware, in South Florida there is a group of riders actually trying to get kiting banned all along the coast. Long story short, this group thinks they have enough access to private waters and therefore is trying to get everyone else banned from kiting. Pretty stupid
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