I need a new bar (plus a good Montrose Story)

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adseguy
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I need a new bar (plus a good Montrose Story)

Post by adseguy »

Hey guys! My Eclipse bar finally popped and I lost the chicken loop and safety system below the bar. Here's the story of what happened below:

So. Saturday (6/19/2010) was beautiful out with a strong 18-20knt WNW wind. I head to Montrose with my gear and ask the lifeguards. We know each other real well now and they allow me almost everytime if I follow where they want me to kite. They said to launch by the bird fence and ride between the plastic walkway to the end of the pier. I followed that to a T the whole time....no issues there. I rig up my 12M and launch away. Yes, I did forget to strap on the streamer and only realized this about half-way through my session. I was going to put in on in a few minutes anyway when I would come in for a breather. There were SUPers, kayakers and jetskis. I had plenty of room to ride and was having a great time WHEN in the middle of a small jump....SNAP! My center spectra line broke and immediately my safety broke too. I fell in the water and my kite was being lofted with just the bar the other way. WAAAAAY downwind a kayaker was watching my kite falling behind them little did they know the bar and lines were falling ahead of them. I screamed and yell "WATCH OUT, HEADS UP!" to no avail since they were so far away. The dragging bar finally caught up to them and it hit a paddle. No big deal the kite finally stabilized and I went to grab it. I was confronted by someone I've seen before, but don't remember his name (a SUPer). He was yelling at me, cursing, saying that I didn't have a streamer. Although he was right I don't think he realized that I almost lost my $1000 kite in a double failure (main line and safety line). He was yelling loud and I was yelling back just telling him to shut up (we don't need the attention). When I grabbed my equipment I waved him over and he finally recognized me from the day last year for the city of Chicago filming we had. He switched his tone and things were very good then. I explained I had a double system failure and these things just happen. I was sorry for not having my streamer and again I am rightfully in the wrong here. I probably won't ever forget it again :oops: :lol: . Everything is calm and cool as I grab another bar from my bag and rig up. I haven't used this bar in a year and it's not in the best shape. I fly it up and on my second tack in.....SNAP the starboard line snaps off. It starts to loop hard and I pull my safety. I was out by the end of the pier at this point. I had to self-rescue in. No issues besides me this time and no confrontations. I figure out my mess and fix the line and go out for another hour.

I really mean this and try to prove me wrong when I say their is nothing I did wrong that day. Kite failures happen, it's part of the game. It really bothers me that someone would say I was reckless when I had 2 COMPLETE gear failures both of which where handled in the best appropriate matter. If anything they are an example of what is done right. By staying in the designated areas and having the correct reactions no one was hurt (heck, even if my kite grabbed onto the guy in the kayak it wouldn't have powered up since it was missing the front lines).


Some maybe wondering why I sound defensive here. This is because someone told Mike Urban that I was being reckless and stupid out there when that couldn't be farther then the truth. I respect Mike a lot and when he gets mad at me because some A-hole tells him I am being reckless, that can really get me going :evil:. This guy might get a thrill of telling a story to Mike at the expense of my reputation. Not cool in my book.

In any case feel free to comment on the situation and maybe leave some feedback on a new bar!

I'm really liking the slingshot bar. Must haves: A free spinning swivel above the bar and nothing I have to take care of. Adjustable size would be nice too, but not necessary.

Thanks!

urjc22
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Post by urjc22 »

Check out the new F-One bar. It is a very simple bar. Excellent build quality, above the line swivel and clam cleat depower. Safety line attachment. I will have new F-one's arriving next week so you can check mine out then if you want. I just spent 10 days riding on the Bandit 3 and was really impressed.

http://www.bayareakitesurf.com/shop/fon ... p-178.html
15 different settings on the bar to depower and power the kite.

jarch
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Post by jarch »

Adrien,

I'll be real with you. I am the concerned kiter (who you assume to be the a-hole) that sent a note to Mike Urban. I was going to write you privately on the forum, but since you posted this, I'll just respond here. I pulled up with my SUP at Montrose yesterday and Allen came up to me and started talking to me about the SUP...asked me if I kite as well, just generally talking about water sports at Montrose. When he found out I'm a kiter, he told me about your incident(s) the day before. Allen was not happy. He felt (rightly so) that any incident at the beach threatens all water sports. I wasn't there, but I did hear Allen's perception of the incident and did read your post. Remember, perception is reality. I just met Allen yesterday, but I can assure you, he has his head on straight and has the best interest of all for Montrose.

Here is what I hope you get from this incident and what everyone else reading this should get.

1. YOU are 100% responsible for what happens during your session. PERIOD. It's called personal responsibility. Before you look outside of you, look at you...explore that thoroughly, and own your shit. Being defensive is a clear sign you haven't owned it.
2. WNW winds at Montrose? I have never kited them and never plan to. Too gusty.
3. Just because the lifeguards may "allow" you to kite, doesn't mean you should. Jetskis, kayaks, and swimmers in the area may be too dangerous to risk it. Review #1 above. There was likely a reason you were the only one out there.
4. Make sure your gear is inspected and in good working ordcer before EVERY session. I have a hard time believing your line just straight up snapped with no signs of trouble. And to see you write, "my eclipse bar finally popped..." the word "finally" indicates poor maintenance or you expected it to happen any day.
5. You made another fatal error when you grabbed your other bar. "I haven't used this bar in a year and it's not in the best shape" I don't think I need to elaborate on what went wrong here.

I'm not writing here to blast you or get a huge thread going here. I don't even need a response. Just please realize that you and only you caused the issues on Saturday, understand that...and learn from the mistakes. Please... So many people depend on Montrose as a kiting and water sport site. Be respectful and smart.

Feel free to give me a call if you want to discuss anything further.
Thanks,
Jon

adseguy
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Post by adseguy »

Jon,

Thanks for having a level headed response to this. I posted this up knowing full well it was 100% my fault, but not within my limited control....if that makes sense. If I ever hurt someone I can't blame it on the kite, the kite won't get sued, and the kite won't care if the beach is banned....it's all me.

The WNW winds work and work well at M. W works, but it's EXTREMELY gusty. I was in control and never Hindenburged my kite nor thrown around.

I agree that just because life guards allow doesn't mean you should. I was just pointing out that I was cleared by them. I do feel it wasn't overly crowded in the area I was in. The beaches were PACKED, but only 2 kayakers and maybe 2-3 SUPers. The jet skis were a nonissue as they came in and out slowly. I agree with you that it won't hold 5 kiters, but one or 2 was no problem. Lots of room to goof around in.

I didn't mean anything by the word finally. The bar is just one and a half years old now and I've replaced the lines, spectra, and swivel once. The bar itself is beat up, but that won't break. Everything was tip top and I'm still curious to where the line actually broke. Since I lost the chicken loop too I'll never know.

Ah yes the "older bar" Yeah, I see your point. I've had no issues with it before, but I guess I should have given it a once over before rigging it up. I might have caught the loose knot on the starboard line connecting to the bar. That's what failed.


Overall, you make great points and I agree, but I don't see what I could have done different (besides the streamer and not re-checking the second bar). Say it was a North wind day (straight on-shore) with little to no crowd. The same situation can happen to anyone and on a north wind the kite will get dragged through people and the beach. Seen it happen a few times too. It wasn't the kiters' faults as the equipment failed....again...it happens.

Should I not have kited because of a "possible failure." I think no one would ever kite then haha :wink:? I'm just having a tough time seeing what I did wrong personally. I'm willing to change anything as I pretty much would put money on it that I use that beach more then any other water recreationist (is that a word?). I would truly be sad if it closed again, but I wouldn't blame someone if gear failed. I hope you understand that. I'm mad at the whistler blower for yelling and causing a scene when it wasn't needed. I'm glad he told others about it, but I'm again mad because of his side of the story makes me look irresponsible. I really thought when I talked to him we had an understanding that it all was an un-avoidable accident (unless I never ever kite anywhere) :lol:.

Thanks again for the comments, just trying to spread the word on an problem and our bet options to handle them :)

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Post by V »

Overall, you make great points and I agree, but I don't see what I could have done different
I agree with arch. before reading jon's had the same response in my head as his points #4 and #5.

You should have been able to see your gear getting shredded. Maintenance is key. In kiting, the time to replace your gear is not after a swim in. It is before you think you will be having to swim in. Twice? and at the worst beach for this to happen? Ouch bro...try and maintain a bit more. that's the rule here, imo.

jojy
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Post by jojy »

Jon, I'm NOT an expert and without getting into all of the comments above, I just wanted to comment about the responsibility we carry for our gear. I agree we need to maintain our gear, but just like a new car or any other new device, you can never tell when stuff will go wrong. To blame Adrien on his gear failure seems to me a bit ridiculous (never the less I do agree about what you said with the second bar..).
my point is, that I don't think anyone will knowingly try to ride a kite that its gear about to brake, unless you want to commit suicide...and if so, there are plenty other faster way .. :wink:
Having a gear accident is no body's fault (regard a poor maintains), getting out of it without making anyone else hurt, in my eyes, is a success .
Sorry to make the next comment, and no disrespect to no body, but it looks like ppl here worry about the beach more then the kiters ! personally, I'm happy Ade' got out of his mess with no injury to himself or OTHERS !!
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Rorke
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Post by Rorke »

You should write Eclipse a letter!

I one time heard about a guy who modified one of those bars.

There is a new stock '08 in my carhold if you want more of the same though.

Glad you're ok. WNW? you're nuts.

jarch
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Post by jarch »

Great discussion folks. Adrien, I appreciate the response back and some ownership on your part. That takes guts. Everyone likes to play the victim, saying, "It just happens...there was nothing I could have done about it...etc." Why? Because then they don't have to accept responsibility. Personally, I don't accept that attitude in myself and push others to challenge it as well. Do you think we would have any issue in the gulf now if BP would have taken ownership for their "equipment failures"? If they truely owned their problem, they would have stopped the leak long ago. Do you think that we would have had the financial meltdown in the housing market if people at the banks and people defauting on loans would have taken ownership for their stupidity? Instead people in foreclosure blame "the banks" for lending them $700K with a balloon loan with $0 down when they only have $35K a year in income! Wasn't my fault!!! It was the banks! People that have heart disease, diabetes, hypertension blame it on being big boned, McDonald's, stress at work, or no time for exercise. Fine...believe that and you'll never have control over your health. I could site many other real world current issues that can be solved with simple ownership. Ownership leads to having command over a situation.

Let's bring this closer to home with an example of how Mike Urban took ownership of a situation. Kiting in Chicago is banned. What does Mike do? He doesn't blame it on "the system" or "the man" and just bitch and moan. He takes action, owns it, and puts in hours of effort himself to meet with the Chicago Park District, city, lawyers, other kiters, etc. BAM! Kiting reinstated for all with a few simple common sense rules. Now that's some serious ownership and power. Inspiring.

Of course I am glad Adrien and everyone on the beach are ok. One, because I care about them. Two, if they weren't ok, then we would never be kiting at Montrose again.

Stay smart and take ownership.

Peace
Last edited by jarch on Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

4w7s
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Post by 4w7s »

If you want a nice bar - I have some new CORE ESP bars. PM or mail me if interested.
Roberto
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nG
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...

Post by nG »

thit is a perfect story to tell for someone who thinks that school is lame and "self rescue" is unnecessary. Shit can happen even for experienced riders.
G

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Post by Bob »

Adrien...tough situation for sure and that sucks big time that you had 2 bar failures.

I always feel for guys who have gear failures on product that I carry and sold even if it's due to wear and tear.

As a preventative measure going forward, you should for sure check for wear and tear frequently due to how many sessions you're getting in. It can only help.

Also...if you wanted a 2009 morph bar, I have them on sale for $199 and would sell it for $99.00 in this situation. If you wanted a different bar and lines, I might also have some Slingshots that I'd sell at my cost or lower depending on the year. I also have Epic bars if interested.

Call me and we'll try to figure out something that will work.

Rorke...I would not put much faith in contacting Eclipse unfortunately. That being said...I'll do what I can to help with anyone's problems as they arise.

bob
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skysurfr
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Post by skysurfr »

Here's how I see it.

1. I wasn't there and it's hard to comment, but of course I will. :-)

2. We are supposed to kite from the DOG BEACH (west) end. We planned it this way to avoid conflicts with the other users who are at the BIRD FENCE (East) end of the beach. Kites and Kayaks don't mix!

3. After we launch we are supposed to head out to the bouy line and kite out there. Again, this helps avoid conflicts with other users, and allows plenty of time for a loose kite to be brought under control before it gets to the beach.

4. The Lifeguards, however well intentioned aren't all that spun up on our procedures. That's partially our fault. We do a great job of NOT involving them in our issues. It's polite to touch base with the guard at the WEST end when you're the first one out. Please don't ask them how to kite. The Park district doesn't want us to. They only say yes you can or no you can't.

5. We all get used to riding all over the place in the off-season. When the beach is open, our options are much more restricted, and much less fun. We all must have the self restraint to not head in close to the "packed" beach or to fly our kite over the heads of recreational water sports users. Mom's, Pop's, and Kids renting kayak's aren't "extreeme wave kayakers".


6. The only time we are "allowed" by the plan to kiteboard, is when the swim areas are closed due to "high wind and wave" conditions. We allowed the Capt. of the Guards some descretion to allow kiteboarding at other times... cold days, low attendence days, rainy days etc... while the sim areas might be "open" the beach is likely empty.

If there's not enough wind to launch from the Dog Beach end, head out, stay out of the swim areas, and make it to the bouy line, then you shouldn't be out at Montrose in the "open Season"


7. Gear Failure / accidents etc..... Shite happens. It's how we prepare for the unexpected that counts. Line will break, hooks will crack etc. Being where you're supposed to be and following the rules will help minimize the risk associated with incedents.

8. Allan, the SUP'r dropped me a note on another forum is great guy and donates his time and efforts to SUPping. His concers that any incedent puts all of our access at risk is genuine. I know for certain that he doesn't have it "out for kiteboarding".

8. I apprectiate hearing about this stuff in advance of getting the phone calls from the PArk Dist or notes from surfers / SUPr's. The sooner I know what happened, the more prepared I can be with an appropriate response.

So from the list above, you can see that there were several things being done "wrong". While any one wasn't a horrible infraction of the rules, they all add up, and then throw in your gear failure. It's a setup for disaster.

Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear eats you. :wink:
Mike

'07 Naish Thorn 144 Cape Doctor. Naish LocalTeam Rider. GoPro Cameras! 12M 10m 08 Naish Pivot's!

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Post by West »

As Mike mentioned there wasn't just one thing going wrong in the scenario, it was several. The equipment failure compounded the problem....thing is that it could've been much worse. Anytime you have a runaway kite and non-kiters in the line of fire, it could be disastrous....don't downplay that potential!!

What dismays me is that you were yelling at the SUPer because he called you out for not having a streamer........why? because you didn't want to draw attention to the fact that, well, you didn't have a streamer.....confusing :? In addition to that, you labelled the whistle-blower as an Ahole.....turns out it was Jon, who has kited more at Montrose than probably anyone, yes, even more than you, Adrien. KUDOS to Jon for calling you out and not backing off!

While accepting responsibility, you also said that it was not within your complete control......KITING OFF SHORE WINDS is not OK. Jarch said he has NEVER kited Montrose on that direction, there is a very good reason for that.....because it is OFFSHORE!!! Equipment failures in kiting happen, but they usually happen because of overuse and negligence....especially when you are talking about chicken loops and lines. Jojy this ain't a new car we are discussing. This is kiting, and equipment needs to be checked regularly and thoroughly! You replaced the lines and the swivel...what about the chicken loop rope? That is what usually leads to the scenario described.

As for being concerned about the safety of a kiter.....if there is no beach access, then there is NO kiter. This is the very reason that we walk a thin line with our available access in the Chicago area. Instead of becoming "defensive" while worrying about your $1000 kite and the new bar you need, truly look at what happened and try and gain a new perspective! And if you are going to kite offshore winds, don't tell others that's ok, cause it surely isn't!!
Last edited by West on Tue Jun 22, 2010 11:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

jojy
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Post by jojy »

West, I think you miss my point :
I was just saying, that shit happened, a gear failure will happened if you check it regularly or not, it depend on what are you doing that day and how much your gear can take. I'm sure you'll agree with me that different gear can handle different abuse (that's what they say, you get what you pay for)

As for Adrien, I'm NOT try to be his protector, but in that case, I MUST say -- and from a personal experience -- Adrian will be the last to compromise Montrose beach access. For every kiter on the beach or something similar to it, Adrian (sorry Ade, no offence..) is like a fly on shit !! he will be the first to make a comment and make sure all is good.

Common guys, the guy had an accident and almost everybody rip his head for get out of it perfectly. He didn't run away from it and was the first to open it for discussion and obviously taking responsibility, I'm sure he will learn his lesson for next time...if any

Last but not least, ENJOY THIS SPORT, TOO SIREIOS WILL MAKE IT NO FUN
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Post by kris »

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Post by skysurfr »

Lessons we're learning here:

1. It's not just us and the guards that know about Streamers. Allan saw what he thought was an "uncertified" kiteboarder and a loose kite. The surfers, SUP's, and Kayaker's all know about our streamers too.

2. Things can go wrong in a hurry.

3. Inspect your gear, especially in "tight" locations.

........
Mike

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Post by West »

Adrien brought it up to discussion when he worried about someone else bringing it up first. Even then he was defensive, and still contends that he did everything right, and wants someone to prove that he did not.

What bothers me is his attitude towards others...in particular the SUPer and the A-hole who turns out to be Jon. To me, he did not take responsibility but tried to explain why he didn't do anything wrong. That is sheer denial!!

The first thing he did wrong is one of the worst things to do in kiting.....KITE OFFSHORE WINDS!!!! That is in violation of rule # 1 in my book. When I read the post Saturday about Adrien going to Montrose, I said to myself.....WOW, that is offshore.....and even now he thinks that it is ok to kite in those conditions and detailed that very notion.

Read the posts again....he is defensive for a reason...he knows it!! Thing is that Adrien has been kiting Montrose for a year or two. Arch for probably about 7, Mike for damn near 10!! Yet you would NEVER see them kiting in those conditions, and definitely wouldn't see them defending that decision, and telling others it was ok to kite Montrose on that direction. That in itself compromises the access at Montrose for everyone, it is an unsafe practice destined for disaster!!

I don't care if it was Adrien or anyone else....stop defending it, face reality, and make any necessary changes to your habits. Kiting Montrose on whatever the direction is cause you don't want to drive anywhere else is not a valid defense my friend!

As for the gear breakdown....yes, it happens. I have not seen his bar and lines....but it appears to have been a chicken loop that has worn through, loaded the front lines which broke, loaded the leash line that broke and off goes the kite. If that is what it was, then routine maintenance and inspection would have prevented it. Maybe it was something else, we may never know. The fact that he sees no problem with his decisions and defends them is troublesome to me.

That noone was injured was "pure luck"....maybe he, you and many others will think there is no lesson to be learned from this, that he did nothing wrong ......funny how the kiters with the most experience feel very differently!!!

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Post by adseguy »

Drama drama drama West haha. You and a few others don't dissapoint I'll give you that hahahaha :lol:. Just watch what topics you want to throw me on the guillotine for. Some are much deserved like Jarch, Mike, and even jojy and said in the appropriate manner, but I gotta say, West, a lot of your points are off topic, not true, and have the wrong tone in them (although the last one could just be the interwebz and the way you type :P). I respect you much for being a phenomenal kiter and a source of good wisdom on the boards. Plus I like cracking up at your little songs on the forums :)

A true WNW wind at Montrose is not off-shore. Heck at some points it was turning a lot more north and I was heading towards dog beach, but I had to turn around because of the crowds. Not gusty whatsoever. I've been in a West wind at Montrose and I won't do it again cause it tends to be too gusty and Hindenburg the kite and when it turn WSW it gets off-shore. In any case it wasn't off-shore or "bad" wind. It was side to side-on at some times.

For the "defensive" side. I'm not sure why you think I'm trying to scrap together a good looking story here and make sure I put it out before anyone bashed me. What happened, happened and I didn't put this up Sunday as I was with the parental units for the day and sorry this isn't the highest priority for me. I intended to post it up Sunday night or Monday when I got a chance. I mean this when I say: I'm not trying to cover my tracks. I was genuinely angry at Allan for yelling at me when he could have approached me calmly even earlier maybe when I was setting up, but after the incident we talked and I thought we smoothed it out, he understood it was an un-avoidable accident and seemed cool. He knows from previous encounters that I'm a good kiter and he even told me this. I even went out after both accidents for another hour. Had a grand ol' time and didn't bug anyone. I was upset that he told a totally different story to everyone else and stated I was irresponsible. I think I could have done some things better and I like those comments, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't irresponsible or naive. If you think so then agree to disagree.

West, I see how easy it is to point fingers and call about line of fire, but I've seen you ride too and you've kited in "the line of fire" too. Everyone has it's unavoidable. You just want to keep the risks to a minimum, but eliminating them all is impossible, be realistic here. If your kite let loose like mine at another beach it would have eventually gone through people back to the beaches.....same issue. Mine just happened to catch one of the 3 people downwind of me.

Mike, I know about the dog beach launch, but they stated that I launch at the bird fence, so i went by their rules. I won't do it again unless it's an East wind with no one on the beach. The buoy line was the danger line. If I crossed that then I would be drug out to sea (err lake) if I had a problem. The pier is the only thing saving me. I just made a conscious choice to kite in that area I thought was safest.


I won't deny the things I could have done better, but sometimes shit happens and I hope it won't happen to anyone else so learn from my little mistakes I did that day (not the blown out of proportion false fact that "I did EVERYTHING wrong"). That's what I'm upset at with Allan and kinda West now :|. At least 90% of the people responding are seeing this the same way I am so I'm happy. I've become a better kiter now :)

jojy
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Post by jojy »

Now I'd like an explanation to "even jojy and said in the appropriate manner.." :wink: :evil: :wink: :D
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Post by skysurfr »

The SUP'r who was involved and has been reading this thread asked me to pass along his comments.

Mike

----------------------------------

Thanks Mike,

Sorry to have to bring this event to your attention but I feel very strongly that for a rider put others in danger like this would have been detrimental to all of the effort you and a lot of others have put into opening the water to all these different activities in Chicago.

Though I didn't realize it at the time, I do know Adrian and could tell even before I found out who was flying that day that whoever it was, is a capable kiter. I would have to strongly disagree with what he is saying on that posting though. He was stunting out in an area full of kayaks, paddle surfers and fisherman. The guy was within 20' of people several times. It was obvious that his "safety line" was ragged and prone to failure. He was flying inside and around the hook with fishermen on both sides of it.

I am not a kiteboarder (yet) so I don't want to fill the site with my diatribe. Please let him know that I read the post and I can get corroboration on how dangerous he is. Just the fact that the stray kite's lines took the paddle out of a child's hands is verification enough. There is no excuse for his actions then and even less excuse for his statements disclaiming any wrongdoing......

-----------------------------
Mike

'07 Naish Thorn 144 Cape Doctor. Naish LocalTeam Rider. GoPro Cameras! 12M 10m 08 Naish Pivot's!

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